Ref: jk00ap16
Follow
up Jack Keefe interview
Answers
to Questions
Table
of Contents
A. Civil War and Abraham Lincoln 2
C. World War Two, Hitler 3
D. Civil War Draft Riots in
NY 3
E. Decision to Pursue War in
Vietnam 4
F. Javits Against War
& Jack's request for Tim 4
G Sons Serve and/or Oppose
War 4
H Sports Illustrated Article
of 23 Mar 1987 5
J Not Talking Politics 6
K Why Humorous Stories? 6
M Shore leave British &
American 6
N Troop Transport to Alaska
- Nature's Elements 7
P Church, British Guyana 7
Q US Army Talk on Patriotism
& Seagulls 7
R Events make History? 8
S Depression, War
Preparation & Unemployment 8
T Oral History Interview
Process 9
U 1920's Radio - Happiness
Boys Programs 9
V Chicklets & Barbesol 10
W TV & Harry Truman 10
X JK on Release for Oral
History Interview use 10
Y JK book -Never one of the
Boys 11
Z Soldier Volunteers for
World War 2 11
ZA Pearl Harbor
Solidified the Country 12
ZB More Follow up
Questions OK 12
ZC Laugh with the World
& "Poop-in-doola" rhyme Author? 13
============================================================================
Follow
up Jack Keefe interview
Answers to Questions
1. AK: You have read considerably about the Civil
War and Abraham Lincoln. What is it that most concerned or impressed you about
that conflict?
2. JK: It was just amazing that we got the
right man , at the right time, there in
B. How
Common Families involved, Great, Great Grandfather/
3. AK What do you think and specifically about
how the common families were involved?
4. J.K. Well we can look at that from the
standpoint of your mother's family. Her Great, Great Grandfather was a man by
the name of
5. AK So that is one of the most striking things
about the conflict?
6. JK Well about the family, there is a
specific family. This is your mother's Great, Great grandfather,
7. AK: You mentioned the leadership as a key
ingredient of success of North?
8. JK I think if they had had a weak
politician in there, the South could have won. Especially in the first couple
of years. It would have been two separate countries today and that would have
been very unfortunate. And of course you just had to get rid of slavery, there
was no question about that. There was nothing right about that. And I think
many people in the south realized that. But they just didn't know how to go
about getting rid of it. And then there is always the element of economics. The
ordinary guy in the south , he didn't have any slaves or any thing like that.
But it was the big slave holders and they were the ones who influenced policy.
9. AK : You
have lived through World War Two and the period after and shared a number of
stories illustrative of your family and friends life and times during that
period. You also made repeated attempts
to volunteer for active duty and shared your letters etc. You eventually went
to work for the government but in another field. Would you care to compare any
experience at that time of your family and friends to what might have happen to
similar group of family and friends if you had lived during the civil war time
in New York.?
10. JK I think it was completely different
because one was section against section. And in WWII it was what we called the
"good war". In that it was
against diabolical institutions. You had
Hitler , who in my estimations was a Fiend. And there was no question in our
mind that we had to get this person out. If he had won, we would probably all
be slaves today. Believe it or not. He would have thought nothing - he thought
nothing of killing millions of people at that time. And if he won, he figured
if he won -great I will do as I please.
11. AK: So there was that sense at the time, your
friends really felt that way once war was declared? In
12. JK: Yeah there
were draft riots in NY City, especially because a lot of the Irish Americans
felt that they were loosing their jobs. And also that they were being drafted
at the expense of their people. In other words you could pay three to four
hundred dollars to get out of the draft. That meant that all the rich people
would pay the three or four hundred and get out of the Draft and the poor
people, they wouldn't have the "where with all" to pay that money and
they would end up in the army. And I
think that was source of the riots to a certain extent. An it was tragic. They
came right after the battles
13. AK You were fairly active politically after
the WWII, having worked on Adlai Stevenson's Campaign in 1952, Gov. Nelson
Rockefeller's Presidential attempt in 1964 and later in Senator Javits Campaign
in 1968. Would you like to discuss some of the thinking that led up to a
decision to pursue the War in
14. JK: Well they felt it was the domino
situation out there, they felt the Communist were going to take over and if you
lost Vietnam the other countries close by would also go down. Actually what
happened, the French,
15. AK When do you think it began to change for
that group you respected who were either moderate republicans or democrats. Who
say would have been in Adlai Stevenson's type of group, who would have been in
Liberal Republican Rockefeller Group or the Javits group. When did you start to
sense a different change was coming in
16. JK I didn't sense too much of a change in
Rockefeller, I think he was for it. But Jack Javits was against it. As a matter
of Fact Tim asked him, to get in touch with the Pentagon and make sure he was
sent over seas. And he said to me: wait a second, Hey I'm against the war. How
can I possibly ask the Pentagon to send one of my constituents there? And he
said, I understand his attitude and maybe if I was the same age I would feel
the same way. He said, I am opposed to it. And he said, there is nothing I'm
going to do to help him get over there.
17. AK You had two sons who served in the Armed
forces, and one who served in
18. JK I felt that we always brought you kids
up to be independent thinkers. And I didn't agree with you. I might have gone
if I had been in that age. But at the same time I had a certain admiration
because you were doing what you thought was right. And where you differed from
many of the guys who were opposed to it. You stayed in the states. You didn't
leave. And you were willing to take whatever the government offered or you said
you were willing to go to jail. That was OK as far as I was concerned. You were
the same as a conscious objector. You were willing to take whatever the
sentence was. But I didn't think much of those people that left for overseas.
They were objecting but they were making damn sure that nothing happened to
them. I think there was a big difference between the two. That is why when
people talk to me about Bill Clinton, I say that is nonsense. He didn't want to
go and he wanted to make sure that he didn't have to go. And he didn't stand up
and say I'm opposed to the war or anything like that. He just did everything he
could to stay out. While giving the impression that he might be for the war. A
big difference. A lot of people ask that about you and he. And I say there is a
big difference. You were willing to take whatever the judgment was on the part
of the authorities. And he wasn't.
19. AK: I don't remember what his service was, I
think I read it but I don't remember in particular. I might as well touch on.... One of the other
students in the grad course is interviewing a student activist who is now about
19, and I thought I would raise with you what were you feeling - probably some
mixed feelings - about the time I was becoming a student activist at the
University? What were your thoughts at that time?
20. JK Well, I thought you were certainly
entitled to your opinion. And I sort of was getting away - by that time in the
late 60's . I was getting more and more disgusted with the Government. And I just think it was terrible that we had
over 50,000 soldiers killed in that war. There was no necessity for it, no
necessity. [Interviewer note: plus over
2 million Vietnamese causalities?]
21. AK: I wanted to mention the sports Illustrated
Article, of 23 March 1987 because I'm going to share that with my colleagues
because I think it says a lot about your background, and some of your swimming
and some of your friends. It did mention that "two of the nine children
served in the armed forces during the Vietnam War but the decision of the
second son not to serve kept father and son apart for ten years." It also
mentioned "that they had reconciled". How true do you think the statement
was?
22. JK: When
I saw that in the article I said that was absolutely nonsense, we weren't
separated. You were home , I don't know where they got that idea from. And this
idea of going through a separation and reconciled is -- The story is wrong as
far as I was concerned. There was absolutely no relationship between our
relationship and what they said in the article.
23. AK I guess since I'm the interviewer, I
usually shouldn't say so much. But I felt at the time there was some truth in
it, probably because we hadn't had this sort of a conversation.
24. JK Yeah, That may be true but we were still
talking.
25. AK Well, I think by that time. But
26. JK We were never separated.
27. AK Well, I wasn't communicating so much. And
maybe some of that was my imagination of what you were thinking. And the fact
that we had meals together and that, but I sort of stayed away from talking
politics or
28. JK Well, you stay away from talking
politics. That doesn't mean you are not on a friendly basis with one another.
As a matter of fact I don't talk politics with Tim today. Because I know he is
a big Gore man. And I am any thing but for Gore. So Peace at any price and we
will fight to keep it.
29. AK One of the things I noticed in many of
your Stories, you seem to find and remember the humorous side. Do you want to discus why?
30. JK; Well that is what life is all about. You
get a humorous story or a humorous phrase and you can turn a situation around
completely. After all you can't go
through life without having a few laughs now and then. And this is what
actually transpired.
31. J.K: You take the story of Howie Thompson and
the time he reported to the sick bay, an it was a Sunday morning and he found
the Chief and his face was all bloodied up. Howie was Doctor aboard ship. And
he said my God chief, what happened. And he told him of going to the dance the
night before. And he said he was coming back to the ship when he went to
another dance hall and they were dancing around and it was the British Navy
giving this -- So the Chief says, I was just getting ready when some guy gets
up and says we will now sing "God
Save the King". And I said God save the son of bitch the British navy
never will [chuckle] and I mean this is
a humorous story - but it is true, It is true.
32. JK: It is the same thing like Tom, when Tom
was getting ready to go out on his second ship. He was on the
33. AK He is trying to see a cultural difference
the way they perceived Americans?
34. JK Right, and when I look back at it, I
think. You know it is a strange thing when you look back on life you don't think
of the bad parts, you think of the good parts. And the good parts you had a lot
of laughs. And I remember New Years Eve of 1943 up in the
35. JK And another day we are sailing on a
troop transport going to
36. JK You go through life - and another story
I tell, I used to go to Church when I was in British Guyana, I would go to
church every Sunday. And I had two roommates a Jewish guy and a Protestant. Ray
Wilding and Norm Bernstein. And I would come back from church and I would say
you know Ray and Norm. Ray, you should go to church every Sunday and Norm you
should go to the Schul every Saturday. And they would laugh like hell and they
would say, Listen : we go once a year weather we need it or not. [chuckle] So
there you are. So humor forms a big part - especially when the going gets
tough.
37. JK Another time we are on the ship going up
to Sakagway [
38. AK You guys weren't enlisted men Right
39. JK No, we were all civilians. I mean these
were all patriotic guys. They were in their forties and fifties. And they
wanted to do something for the nation. And they treated them like dogs. And
then when we go there, to Sakagway. We figured boy, we out maneuvered the
army. We got in to the port and they
pulled us up, the ship. And they could have brought the buses up. You know real
close to the ship. They parked it up about a quarter of a mile. And a Colonel
came out and met us and said: "all right you sons of bitches, start
walking." [chuckle]. And we had to carry all our gear.
40. AK He heard about what you had done on the
ship you think?
41. JK Oh, they wired ahead, sure. But they
couldn't do much because we hadn't assaulted anyone or anything. You know, and
we were all civilians. It would have been creating havoc.
42. AK How does your view of history, put
together what actually gets down as history and what are actually people's
stories. So there are two questions. What makes history and then what are people's
stories and when do they become part of [historical] stories.
43. JK Well, I think events make history. I don't
believe in this idea of the great man theory and all that sort of stuff.
Because events come along and you have no control over them and all of a
sudden, boom! Now, for example the World War II came along and they did
everything to stop it and so forth. But it just accelerated all the way and
because of the fact that nobody stopped Hitler when he went into the Ruher back
in 1936, He kept getting more power, more and more power. And the only guy who
really stood up to him was [Prime Minister of
44. For example it
is the same thing in 1929.When the depression hit, they did everything to stop
it. You can say what you want. But that depression lasted from 1929 to 1941,
when we got in the war. And then we came out and started to build the planes
and the ships, then the depression ended. But don't let any one tell you that
the depression ended back in 1936 or 1930's. I got out of college in 1937, I
never got a job until 1940. And this wasn't that I didn't try. I would be in
1. You are just out
of college you don't have enough experience.
2. You are too old
at 22
45. AK So they got you both ways. They didn't
want to give you a low paying job because you had too much education for it.
And they wouldn't give you a higher job because you didn't have enough
experience?
46. [interruption]
47. JK If you got a job you were lucky to get
12 dollars a week. And if you had something really to offer, you got 14 dollars
a week. But the real tycoons were making 18 dollars a week but they were real
geniuses.
48. AK Those were coming out of college or they
were just regular guys.
49. JK Just coming out of college, Graduated
Summa Cum Laude. All sorts of background.
There were no jobs though. That was as simple as that. Men were raising
families on 18 or 20 dollars a week.
50. AK Is there anything that you would like to
say to any one who would be listening to these tapes or any of the tapes that I
have done. Or reading the interviews [from the tapes] in the years ahead? About them or what you think of the process?
51. JK Well I think it is a good process. Oral
history like that. Is always good to get into the record. And as a matter of
fact with all these computers they have these days, you can probably get a lot
more into the files than you could in the old days. And it is such a change
from the time I was a little boy.
52. JK Now I was born in 1915. And we didn't
have radio until the middle of the 1920's.
And I remember we had little crystal sets and you have a little pointer.
And you would try to get this station. And you get WDAK from
53. JK Then of course we moved out to Saint
Albens where we had a radio and we would be in front of the Radio and you would
have certain programs coming and you would just wait.
54. JK I remember one program back in the late
1927-1928. The Happiness boys. And I still remember it. We would go to
choir rehearsal at
·
How do you do everybody, how do you do?
·
How are you everybody, How are you?
·
Don't forget your Friday date,
·
How do you doodle, doodle, doodle, doodle, do!
·
Hello Billy, Hello Billy Jones and they were on the air. So
then we would hear the last seconds coming on, we would run like heck it was
two minutes to eight. We would run down to the church and just walk into the
choir room about
55. JK And then there was another one. Singing
Sam the Barbersol man
·
No brush, no lather, no rubbing
·
Just wet your razor and begin.
·
Hello folks this is singing Sam the Barbasol man.
56. JK And there was another one. [Sing song]
·
Any time your feeling blue,
·
And you don't know what to do.
·
Chew chicklets and cheer up.
·
There is a fresh and minty flavor - and it goes on [
chuckle]
And then before the war you had..
57. AK This is about 75 years ago?
58. JK This is going back to 1938. You had
programs on Eddie Canter, Fred Alan, Jack Benny, Bing Crosby. And they had them
programmed and people would sit around waiting for them. And Mrs. Goldberg.
Hello, Molly Goldberg. We would all listen and wonder what was going to happen
the next week. We would all be around the radio. Then of course the war came
along and everything was static. Then the first thing you know we went to TV.
59. JK I remember vividly, we didn't have a TV
and our neighbors, the Hogan's had a TV. [1948 in
60. AK I think I had shown you in one of the
books, some of the release forms that people have to sign if they deposit the
interviews or tapes, and we will go through that. But do you have any
reservations about how the tapes or the transcripts from them might be used in
the years ahead?
61. JK No. Not at all, Not at all. It is part
of the record
.
62. AK Are you still thinking that you might try
to put together some of those things into a book?
63. JK Oh definitely, I'm working on it. Yeah.
It is called "you are never one of the boys". And it starts really
about how I tried to get into the Canadian, British and the French service in
1939 at the declaration of war. But I made my first appeal to the
64. JK If anyone else was going to write a book
would you want them to wait until yours was published first.
65. JK Aw, it wouldn't make that much
difference. My life is different from theirs.
66. AK I mean if we put this stuff up on the web
or made it available and they wanted to include parts of it in their book.
Would you ask them to be in touch with you?
67. JK Oh, I would ask them to get in touch
with me period. Sure, why not. I'm working on this book right now. And I have
gone through my diaries. I've kept a diary from
1941 and I am up to just starting 1944. And I have about another 150 incidents
already.
68. AK is that in addition to the seventy that we
already recorded?
69. JK Yes and I have all of 1944 and 1945 to
go through.
70. AK are you doing as we did before. You put a
little number and little title.
71. JK I put the number and the date in the
Diary and I put the story there and I will expand it as I get into the writing.
Yeah. I think it could be very interesting to tell the reaction of all my
friends going off to service.
72. JK Like Vinnie Dunleavy, was a New York
City Fireman. He was not eligible for the draft because they needed
Fireman. But he thought that he wanted
to get in. So he signed up. Jack Farell didn't have to go. He was married with
child. And he signed up and went. Lee Rosenfield, he was eligible to go. But he
decided to do the thing the hard way. He went into the Naval Air Force. Which
was really a tough job. He was a good pilot.
73. AK So that was one of the reasons it was so
different in a sense than the Vietnam war? People were trying to get in.
74. JK I remember when I was in Trinidad [West
Indies]? And the Pearl Harbor assault came on a Sunday. And there were a lot of
guys there that did not want to go into service. But the next day as soon as
war was declared, they were down at the Navy and the Army trying to enlist
right in Trinidad. No, people were different then because they felt that this
was a just war. There was no quibbling about it. The congress got behind it
100%. The people got behind it 100%. How could you quibble with this nut Hitler.
75. AK And once they made the attack on Pearl
Harbor.
76. JK That just solidified the whole country.
There was a lot of dissent up till that point. You had people called
"America Firsters" and they didn't want to have anything to do with
the European War. I thought back in 1939 that they were altogether wrong. And
they were still fighting until Pearl Harbor. And then when Pearl Harbor came
along, they adjusted their thinking and got into it. Yeah times were different then.
77. AK I might put some of this out in Electronic
form. And ask any of my student Colleagues, if they were doing the interview
what kind of questions they would ask. We are seeing that in order to get
behind the scenes you have to press a little. And being I'm your son it might
not be as easy for me to press you on certain things.
78. JK That's right.
79. AK Because of our relationship. And I respect
you and all of that. So if some one was a professional historian, they may say what
about this and keep going. So I will probably say to them, If they had any
questions I would submit them to you. Would that be agreeable to you?
80. JK Sure. No problem. As the saying goes.
Call me, OK, any time you want. But just don't call me late for dinner.
[chuckle]
81. JK Well we were talking about Humor awhile
ago and there is an old saying. "If
I laugh, it is so that I may not weep." And my father had an expression.
·
Laugh and the world Laughs with you
·
Kick and you Kick alone,
·
For cheerful grin will let
you in
·
Where a kicker is never known.
82. AK Mom used to use "teardrop" in
place of "kicker"
83. JK Incidentally, my father had another
expression, that I have asked people if they have ever heard. And nobody ever
heard of it before. It goes [Sing song]
·
One time a "poop-in-doola"
·
Lived on a river boat;
·
A wide gigantic poodle
·
With whiskers on his throat.
·
His teeth were Long and shiny
·
His tale was made of wood;
·
He'd eat up people tiny
·
The bad but not the good.
·
And so on. But nobody has ever heard of that before. But he
always recited it
·
84. AK And you were wondering what the source
was?
85. JK Yeah
86. AK So this ends the 15th April 2000 interview
87. JK In the year of our Lord [chuckle]