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Ref: MAT2_B09 |
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Part B-9: History, Memory, Questions & Humor: |
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Parallel
Lives in Perspective |
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Murky Wells of Memory "One can only draw so
much from the murky wells of memory. Autobiography in the end is an
interrogation of the past by the present" –Arthur Schlesinger |
Diary – Sense of Importance AKK: Did you have a sense then when you started the
diary, that this was going to be an important time, do you think? JJK: I had no sense at all about it. Just a little something to do. I really started writing it though, when I
went in |
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People of the Past "The assertion that
the people of the past did not really know why they were doing what they did
leads to the conclusion that we do not really know why we are doing what we
do today. When participants explain in urgent words why they lived, fought
and bled, is it not hubris for historians to dismiss their testimony?” –
Arthur Schlesinger |
Events Make History? 43. JJK: I think events make history. I
don't believe in this idea of the great man theory and all that. Events come
along and you have no control over them and all of a sudden, boom! Now, for
example the World War II came along and they did everything to stop it. But
it just accelerated all the way because of the fact that nobody stopped
Hitler when he went into the Ruher back in 1936. He kept getting more power,
more and more power. And the only guy who really stood up to him was [Prime
Minister of |
Interview
Abbreviations: JJK = Jack [John Joseph]
Keefe; WDK = Wanda Davis
Keefe; AKK = Adhiratha Kevin Keefe
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Table of Contents Introduction:.......................................................................................................................................................... 1 Supplementing Oral History with Documents:................................................................................................. 2 Diary formats:......................................................................................................................................................... 2 6. JJK Diaries – 1941 - 2001?; Begins with local guys going to war................................................................ 3 Input for future book............................................................................................................................................. 4 Events make History?........................................................................................................................................... 4 Private and Public Space :.................................................................................................................................. 4 Authority to speak:................................................................................................................................................ 5 Previous Audiences for stories.............................................................................................................................. 5 Interview Process seemed to encourage participant
Confidence........................................................................... 5 Genre Comparison Chart based on Portelli..................................................................................................... 5 Validity of Oral History & interest in the
Archives......................................................................................... 6 ZB More Follow up Questions OK............................................................................................................. 7 K Why Humorous Stories?.............................................................................................................................. 7 ZC Laugh with the World &
"Poop-in-doola" rhyme Author?..................................................................... 7 |
While discussing the various
interviews and reviewing related reference material the issue of what makes a
good oral history was explored. Participants selective memory and the
validating potential of related written documentation was often noted. A more
analytical approach touched on the specific Oral History genre that these
interviews appear to belong. The willingness of interviewees to submit to
follow up questions was explored and Jack Keefe comments on his use of Humor.
Of the various books read concerning
this time period for the project, Schlesinger seemed to have the most
philosophical and yet practical view of how history is to be read and the
unreliable nature of memory with the passage of time. As a historian he felt a
professional obligation to supplement and rectify memory by recourse to
documents. He comments that he tried to write his biography of himself as if he
were writing a biography of someone else. Even so he states that "One can
only draw so much from the murky wells of memory. Autobiography in the end is
an interrogation of the past by the present" [B09-N01]
Jack and Wanda had their own takes
on memory and the historical record. Jack kept detailed records of his attempts
to enter the armed forces and Wanda’s recommendation from her last Job in
The Diary that A. Schlesinger used
in his sophomore year of college summarized the days activities into 5
categories: Weather, Work, Smoking, Liquor and Love. [B09-N02]. Jack didn’t
mention any categories for his diaries of the last 60 years but shared how they
got started. But he is candid that he really had no sense that it was an
“important time”.
6. JJK Diaries – 1941 - 2001?; Begins with local guys going to war[excerpt below, for full see jw00se30.htm, para 06] AKK: We were talking a little before
a about your diaries. When did you first start doing them. JJK: 1941. I really started early in 1941. As a matter-of-fact, one of my entries in
February of 1941, I note the fact that the seventh Regiment, is New York, has
been called up for active duty. They
were leaving from downtown AKK: This was the subway that was
going to get them -- JJK: The subway would take them to
downtown. They would get off downtown
and then they would take the ferry over to Wehawken I think it was, or
something like that. AKK: And they had already been
signed in? JJK: Oh, yeah. They had their
uniforms on. None of them fitted. I tell you, they were a sorry group of guys. Plus the fact, that they were called up,
was a big surprise. That was before we
are in the war, you know. But then a
lot of them of course became Flyers.
Bill Rynne was a pilot, a fighter pilot. He is an official “Ace”. He got credited with knocking down five
German planes. He told me he really
felt he got 17 German planes. But he
couldn't prove it, because you have to have a witness. And he is off by himself somewhere. And he had no witnesses. But he felt quite
certain he had 17. And Bud Armstein
was a pilot of a.B-24. And he was
stationed in AKK: Did you have a sense then when
you started the diary, that this was going to be an important time, do you
think? JJK: I had no sense at all about
it. Just a little something to
do. I really started writing it
though, when I went in AKK: Do you think at that time you
had -- what was the sense of the other people around you too? Was it just your getting out of school, you
were looking for jobs, and all of a sudden this war was happening. JJK: Yeah. AKK: So, it was just, you didn't
know what was going on in a way? You were – |
Jack notes that he would like to
put together a book of his stories as a vehical for sharing with a wider
audience the reactions of his friends who joined the war effort.
Input for future book
[excerpt below, for full see jk00ap16.htm,
para Y, 067] 67. JJK: . I'm
working on this book right now. And I have gone through my diaries. I've kept
a diary from 1941 and I am up to just
starting 1944. And I have about another 150 incidents already. 68. AKK is that in addition to
the seventy that we already recorded? 69. JJK: Yes and I have all of
1944 and 1945 to go through. 70. AKK are you doing as we did
before. You put a little number and little title. 71. JJK: I put the number and
the date in the Diary and I put the story there and I will expand it as I get
into the writing. Yeah. I think it could be very interesting to tell the
reaction of all my friends going off to service. |
Wanda commented during the interview process on the
number and detail of the many memories which came back as the interviews and
follow up discussion progressed. Wand
and Jack seemed pleasantly surprised upon reviewing the transcriptions to find
how much had been recorded.
In discussing the historical
context Jack expanded on his view that “Events make History”. However he seems
to also acknowledge that individual people’s actions caused these events.
Events make History?[excerpt
below, for full see jk00ap16.htm, para S, 043] 43. JJK: Well, I think events make history. I
don't believe in this idea of the great man theory and all that sort of
stuff. Because events come along and you have no control over them and all of
a sudden, boom! Now, for example the World War II came along and they did
everything to stop it and so forth. But it just accelerated all the way and
because of the fact that nobody stopped Hitler when he went into the Ruher
back in 1936, He kept getting more power, more and more power. And the only
guy who really stood up to him was [Prime Minister of |
Jack and
Wanda's wartime service stories start
with the private family and childhood community relationships but enter the
public sphere very quickly. They deal with bureaucracies and hierarchies. Jack
has traveled much more but Wanda is very aware of the business world.
·
Jack brings to the interviews an autobiography authority derived from his experience of sharing his
stories for decades with public and private audiences. He remembers his
participation in events which had the potential to transform the wider society
[ e.g. political campaigns.]
·
Wanda’s
audiences have been mostly family and friends.
She requires encouragement to share them in a formal setting. However in
a conversational setting she is able to provide rich detail of feelings of
events long past especially related to the lives of her family and friends.
Participating in the oral
history process itself, revisiting events, consulting background
correspondence, source material of the time and dairies or letters written
years previously seemed to strengthen both participants confidence in what they
were saying and its relative importance to other events in their lives.
A chart excerpted from material presented in Alessandro
Portelli’s The Battle of Valle Giulia, Oral
History and the Art of Dialogue., Introduction and Chapter One
might place Wanda and Jack’s contribution below
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Where does the story fit? |
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Life |
Continuum or dichotomy? |
Times |
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Subject oriented life
story |
Both Jack and Wanda combined
Life story with specific themes. Wanda was more theme oriented. |
Theme oriented testimony |
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Performance oriented
narrative |
Both Wand and Jack had a
more narrative presentation. Related documents were
presented mostly in context of a specific story. E.g. Jacks correspondence
related to efforts to join the war effort. Wanda’s story of her trip back to |
Content-oriented document |
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individual experiences |
Jack More Political,
Wanda’s presentation was more individual experiences. |
transformations of society |
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Biography |
Wand and Jack combined
biography and history, however Jack was more historical in context with exact
dates or locations provided as part of the story |
history |
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Narrative Pleasure |
Jack and Wanda enjoy the
process of telling and listening – Jack likes the humorous story and in most
family or public arenas Jack would express himself via story telling. Once
begun the process would often bring forth additional “often told tales”. |
Hard Facts |
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Beauty |
Wanda and Jack both
discuss the beauty of travel and have a positive attitude toward life which
comes across during their stories. Wanda gives more descriptive detail. Jack
goes for the punch line and loves well told stories. Jack will instinctively
consult a reference book to check on a name or date. Sometimes he would do so
in response to a question or interrupt one of his stories – explaining what was doing]. |
Truth |
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Life is meaningful |
Story is well told |
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Truth of religious symbol
or of Possibility |
Most discussions for the
interviews focused on material events |
Truth of material Events |
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Personal recollections |
Both have Awareness of
Historical background but Jack was more likely to mention historical
background due to the nature of his stories |
Broader historical
background |
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Personal Exchange |
Wanda is more focused on personal
exchange, with ability to divert or follow the conversation to unplanned
topics. Jack is more prone to the public statement and finishing the story
once begun. |
Public Statement |
People who later review the tapes
or interview transcripts may question if Jack or Wanda really understood why
they made certain choices or under took the actions they report. A. Schlesinger
comment to those type of queries is instructive. "The assertion that the
people of the past did not really know why they were doing what they did leads
to the conclusion that we do not really know why we are doing what we do today.
When participants explain in urgent words why they lived, fought and bled, is
it not hubris for historians to dismiss their testimony? [B09-N03]
To assist future researchers I have
included a list of the sources consulted [Part G] as well as transcripts of the complete
interviews [Part C] .As a professional archivist, I appreciated A. Schlessinger’s
comment that he finds time passes more quickly in the archives than almost
anywhere else. [B09-N04].
The possibility of others pursing follow up questions was discussed early in the interview process with Jack.
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[excerpt
below, for full see jk00ap16.htm, para ZB, 077] 77. AKK: I
might put some of this out in Electronic form and ask others if they were doing
the interview, what kind of questions they would ask. In order to get behind
the scenes you have to press a little. And being I'm your son it might not be
as easy for me to press you on certain things. 78. JJK: That's
right. 79. AKK: Because
of our relationship and respect I have for you. Some professional historian
might want to go further. So if they had any questions to submit to you,
would that be agreeable to you? 80. JJK: Sure.
No problem. As the saying goes. Call me, OK, any time you want. But just
don't call me late for dinner. [chuckle] |
Many of Jacks favorite and often
told stories are humorous and he explained why:
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[excerpt
below, for full see jk00ap16.htm, para K, 029] 29. AKK: One
of the things I noticed in many of your Stories, you seem to find and
remember the humorous side. Do you
want to discus why? 30. JJK:; Well
that is what life is all about. You get a humorous story or a humorous phrase
and you can turn a situation around completely. After all you can't go through life without
having a few laughs now and then. And this is what actually transpired.
[referring to some of his brother Tom an Frank’s humorous stories during the
war – see B-06]
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[excerpt
below, for full see jk00ap16.htm, para ZC, 081] 81. JJK:
Well we were talking about
Humor awhile ago and there is an old saying.
"If I laugh, it is so that I may not weep." And my father
had an expression. ·
Laugh and the world Laughs with you ·
Kick and you Kick alone, ·
For cheerful grin will let you
in ·
Where a kicker is never known. 82. AKK: Mom
used to use "teardrop" in place of "kicker" |
Jack,
ended an interview with a story about a rhyme that his father used more than 70
years ago. Jack has not come across a reference for the source and would welcome any information. This was an
example of Jack’s attention to detail and interest in sources even for a rarely
heard jingle or poem.
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[excerpt
below, for full see jk00ap16.htm, para ZC, 083] 83. JJK: Incidentally,
my father had another expression, that I have asked people if they have ever
heard. And nobody ever heard of it before. It goes [Sing song] ·
One time a "poop-in-doola" ·
Lived on a river boat; ·
A wide gigantic poodle ·
With whiskers on his throat. ·
His teeth were Long and shiny ·
His tale was made of wood; ·
He'd eat up people tiny ·
The bad but not the good. ·
And so on. But nobody has ever heard of that before. But he always recited it84. AKK: And
you were wondering what the source was? 85. JJK: Yeah 86. AKK: So
this ends 87. JJK: In
the year of our Lord [chuckle] |
End Note part B09
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End
Note Part-Sect-Note |
Author |
Source & Link to Bibliography in Part G |
Abbreviated reference to Source |
Page |
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B09-N01 |
Schlesinger, Arthur M., Jr. |
AL20C |
Pp XIII, XIV |
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B09-N02 |
Schlesinger, Arthur M., Jr. |
AL20C |
Pp 114 |
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B09-N03 |
Schlesinger, Arthur M., Jr. |
AL20C |
Pp 366 |
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B09-N04 |
Schlesinger, Arthur M., Jr. |
AL20C |
Pp 179 |